BurtSner
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Posted 1501002244
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While my 2011 Burstner drives like a dream there are occasions when I need to change down a couple of gears to tackle some hills. Knowing that vehicle manufacturers map their engines to suit various fuels used around the world and build in some safety with regards to output I have decided to look for a bit more power.
There are several companies that advertise a remap offering various states of tune and I have one just a half mile away from home. I wandered in there this morning to enquire what was on offer, the price and when it could be done. They came back with an upgrade from 130bhp to 160 and a useful increase in torque from around 1400 rpm. It was while you wait, and could be done immediately.
I went home and returned with the MH, and after clearing several error codes they set about firstly interrogating the ECU and sending those details to the head office. A revised map was returned within minutes and added to my ECU.
Start to finish was barely 90 minutes and included a walk round the boss's motorbikes 🏍 Job done and £250 later I was on my way
As I live just a few minutes away I can't report fully just yet, that may be a few days, however the short drive home showed a useful increase in pep and I'm looking forward to doing my usual route at the weekend.
I filled the tank with fuel in order to be able to see from the start what effect all of this will have. I've kept records since day one of my fuel consumption so I'll be able to show real world numbers from the start
In 4 and a bit years I've done 21994 miles, put in 3568.16 litres of fuel @ £4326.41. This turns into 27.86 mpg overall and 19.7 ppmile
I'll be back in a few weeks.
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
witzend
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Posted 1501004463
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#2
Be interesting to hear your reports after a trial period
loopwithers
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Posted 1501016716
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#3
Me too. This is one to watch.
Escapecommittee
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Posted 1501050098
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Hi, is this the kind of mod that has to be notified to your insurance company. Any ideas what the increase is premiums might be?
trevorf
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Posted 1501060245
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#5
I did exactly the same upping my 130bhp to 154bhp and similar increase in torque. Pulls noticably better in 5th and 6th from low revs and no increase in fuel comsumption at all. I notified my insurance company and it made no difference to my premium.
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BurtSner
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Posted 1501073594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapecommittee Hi, is this the kind of mod that has to be notified to your insurance company. Any ideas what the increase is premiums might be?
Many would. How would they know? There's no physical evidence and Fiat do a 150 version already.
I'll modify my initial post if I am able when I get some test results to keep everything together.
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
Admin Simon
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Posted 1501086645
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So envious. 1996 2.5 mon turbo. No chance of every achieving more than 30bhp. Ah well! It's noce to read about something that is achievable. BurtSner, keep us posted please.
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Pudsey Bear
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Posted 1501855494
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#8
Simon, this is why you have a gearbox, staying in top gear going up a decent hill isn't a good idea on any vehicle, the revs are just too low the engine labours etc. it isn't there just to get to the top speed, Your Busa will have to downchange despite its power to weight ratio being so good, if it meets a big enough hill the 5th gear problem on 2.8 jtds is partly due to not changing down, too much torque.
__________________Kev Warning, might contain an opinion If you're not the lead dog, your view never changes. Don't force it, use a bigger hammer. Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi. Link to self build pictures Link to sort of blog on facts
BurtSner
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Posted 1501856522
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#9
That's not the whole story Kev, we are running white van fully loaded all the time. We also use good quality (?) fuel all of the time. Fiat have mapped the engine based on different parameters that doesn't allow us to make use of the good fuel when we want. I'm getting a shed load more torque low down where it's wanted 1400/2200 rpm
While I have no concrete figures to work with just yet as I've barely done 200 miles so far, my seat of pants feeling is that I am able to engage a higher gear a lot sooner than before and it is not slowing so easily into a headwind or a reasonably minor hill.
One noticeable hill that I encounter at 55mph locked on cruise (indicated 60 on speedo) always kicks out as it is unable to maintain the speed, and changing down to 5th won't allow it to pull, I always have to change to 4th and accelerate enough to get to 5th where the hill eases and I'm back in top again
Now, it easily climbs the hill, and when I put my foot down to see what would happen it simply accelerated easily.
So, Initially, I would say that there has been a very noticeable improvement. I will see what happens in the next couple of weeks if I get the chance I'm hoping for to get away for a couple of thousand miles, and I will have positive proof of fuel useage. As said at the start I've got 4 years of figures to work with.
As an aside, my Busa had so much torque that gear changes up hill were only needed to blast past cars and caravans. The Kawasaki being the worlds most powerful motorcycle has gears t change the tune out of the exhaust s
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
loopwithers
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Posted 1501859941
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#10
Re-mapping the JTD engine is worthwhile because Fiat have basically 'de-tuned' the engine to stop it chewing its final drive to bits after five minutes with van rental customers. The big power reserve you are hacking into is just sitting there waiting to be used in the re-map, intended to be 'unlocked' when a bigger kerb weight like a motorhome or paramedic unit is bolted over the engine. The maximum torque comes in lower down the rev range. By way of an alternative and similar example, Ford Europe now power all their Transit van range from one single engine: a new 2 litre, four-pot diesel. They increase the power range from 100BHP (smaller Transit Custom vans) up to 160BHP (Transit Jumbo) and then the Hertfordshire Police whack it even higher for their own vehicles. Same engine, just re-mapped. No known disadvantages...but traction control, buffered clutches, dual-mass flywheels are very much the order of the day to stop the transmission blowing itself to bits if you dump the clutch and floor it in second gear out of a slippery layby. Like a biker.
BurtSner
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Posted 1501866788
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#11
Yes, I had my 2.8jtd remapped from 128 to 160 and that made it nicely sprightly.
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
loopwithers
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Posted 1501869361
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#12
Make the best use of what is in your power, and take the rest as it happens. ~ Epictetus Smart bloke, he was.
BurtSner
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Posted 1501870621
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Power is nothing without control - Pirelli (oh they made some lovely calendars, back in the day)
Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately - anon
Too much power is never enough - me
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
Pudsey Bear
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Posted 1501877115
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#14
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
__________________Kev Warning, might contain an opinion If you're not the lead dog, your view never changes. Don't force it, use a bigger hammer. Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi. Link to self build pictures Link to sort of blog on facts
BurtSner
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Posted 1501915015
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Dunno how I wrote that, I know what it should have said
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
Pudsey Bear
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Pudsey Bear
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Posted 1501933813
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#17
Have a butchers at this Si.ENGINE REMAPPING? - GENUINE ENHANCEMENT OR SNAKE OIL?
What is Remap?
When a manufacturer develops a new vehicle they have to take into consideration all of the conditions it may be subjected to in all of the regions in which they intend to sell this model.
This means instead of just optimising the ECU’s program or ‘map’ to deliver the best performance or the most fuel efficiency they have to make compromises to the map to take into account these potential differing operating conditions.
These could include sub-standard fuels, extremes in temperature and altitude, differing emission laws and even the possibility that vehicle may not be serviced on a regular basis and in accordance with the manufacturers recommended instructions.
ECU remapping is taking a read from the ECU’s processing chip of the vehicles standard compromised map and adjusting various parameters within the map such as fuel pressure, boost pressure (on turbocharged applications) ignition advance and throttle pedal control amongst others to release the true performance from the engine.
It is a completely safe process as it is just giving the engine the performance it should have had in the first place before all the compromises were applied to the original programming. Every engine will have its own unique map and by adjusting this we can fine tune the characteristics of the engine; unleashing more power and in many cases reduce fuel consumption too.
Benefits of Remapping
ECU remapping will not only improve the engines power and torque figures, it will also sharpen the throttle response and widen the power-band. This will make the power delivery a lot more linear, which in turn will make the vehicle feel a lot livelier to drive and the engine more flexible.
Frequently, the vehicles power output is restricted by the manufacturer for no other reason than to ensure that the vehicle fits into a class to suit fleet buyers, this is particularly pertinent in Motorhomes.
The other main benefit of remapping will be a reduction in fuel consumption. With the extra torque especially at the bottom of the rev range you will see a fuel saving, as it will require less throttle input to maintain motorway speeds, you can drive in a higher gear at a slower speed as well as helping significantly when fully laden, towing or on gradients and even in start stop traffic.
After an ECU upgrade the customers enjoy:
Increased horsepower
Increased torque
Better throttle response
Smoother power delivery
Improved fuel economy
Safer overtaking
Saving Fuel with a Remap
When we remap a vehicle, especially when fuel saving is the priority we focus on improving the low end torque in particular and widening the power-band as far as we can.
This increase in low end torque will mean less throttle pedal input is required to maintain cruising speeds, when fully laden or when on a gradient. It will also mean that the vehicle will be more comfortable in higher gears at slower speeds as well requiring fewer gear changes overall.
If you combine these factors with adjusting your driving style to make the most of the extra low end torque you will see an improvement in fuel consumption. This is most effective on turbo-diesel engines where the savings could be as much as 20%!
Fuel saving doesn’t always happen though, some people drive harder which will use more fuel. The very gentlest of drivers will see little improvement either, as they are nor using the power to its full potential, in fact some drivers are so slow that they are outside the optimum torque window.
One now infamous owner quoted “I never use that turbo thing”. He was getting 18 out of a 2.3JTD panel van, but after some encouragement to use the turbo and change his driving style, he soon was into the early 30’s.
Star Auto Trail MPG Performer
At last year’s 1,000 rally we spoke with a club member who earns the accolade of getting the best MPG out of his Quantum remapped van, through best use out of the remap and undoubted driving skill and experience.
The ‘van was a smallish Navajo running the 3.0 Ducato. The over a period of 3864 miles (?????? Can’t remember his name, Reg number is NK11 COU) averaged 31mpg and he doesn’t hang about either with an overall 38mph over the 99.5 hours driving. On the way to the rally, over a 194 mile run he achieved a remarkable 32.7mpg
Quantum Tuning
Quantum are the UK’s leading remapping company in the UK, with over 260 dealers and 600 installation centres. Quantum has always been a motorhome specialist and have attended all of the main motorhome shows (as Quantum and Wow) for the last 6 years.
A long term favourite van to remap has been the venerable 2.8JTD with over 2,000 ‘vans remapped closely followed by the X250 engines. Virtually every van after 2000 can be done.
We have remapped 100’s of Auto Trails for club member over the years and Quantum’s MD, Chris Roberts is a proud Auto Trail owner and club member.
What Take Place During Remapping?
We do not change any hardware in your vehicle, we just modify the operating parameters in the ECU’s program or ‘map’. In many cases the map stored on the ECU’s processor can be accessed via the on-board diagnostics port (OBD) in the vehicle, normally found under the dashboard. In some newer models the ECU will have to be removed from the vehicle and the casing opened, our technicians will then use specialist tools to read the original map straight from the processing chip.
The technician will then upload the original map to our map writing team who will adjust the parameters to maximise the performance, fuel economy or a clever blend of both. Depending on the vehicle and ECU type the remapping process can take under an hour and if at any time you wish to return your vehicles ECU to its original default settings, this can be done easily and free of charge as we always keep a copy of the original software as a backup.
So, Snake oil or Genuine Enhancement?
Firstly don’t take our word for it, speak with club members and gauge their experience.
We know for a fact that virtually all owners are absolutely delighted with the remap, the difference from standard is often quite spectacular. Most see a fuel improvement; some don’t but don’t care as it’s transformed their drive.
Ultimate backup is every ‘van remap has a 30 day money back guarantee so you can make your own decision of just how good your van is after the remap.
Find out the improvements to your ‘van at http://www.QuantumTuning.co.uk, or if you wish to speak to Chris Roberts then call 07970-317512http://www.quantumtuning.co.uk/
__________________Kev Warning, might contain an opinion If you're not the lead dog, your view never changes. Don't force it, use a bigger hammer. Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi. Link to self build pictures Link to sort of blog on facts
loopwithers
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Posted 1501945348
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#18
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, re-mapping the Engine Control Unit (ECU) parameters can only be offered to owners running a turbo-diesel or twin-turbo diesel engine. Re-mapping changes when the turbo kicks in and how much boost and power it applies when it does. I recently drove a selection of second hand re-mapped parcel vans. Whereas the engines all seemed fine, some vans showed obvious signs of transmission failure onset, (clunks and judders) most likely caused by 'driver abuse' - eg: dropping the clutch hard in 2nd and 3rd gears on a slippery road and dumping say 140 BP onto a single drive shaft by spinning the wheels. To stop this kind of situation happening, 'Traction Control' - a program which removes power from a spinning wheel - is offered on newer vans. Beware buying re-mapped vans which do not have Traction Control fitted because there is nothing to limit the huge torque forces that can be rammed into the gearbox, clutch and drive shafts by the driver - for example when trying to extract the van from mud or loose surfaces like farm tracks etc. If you drive a turbo-diesel van, you will note that there is usually a sensor fitted above the clutch pedal. This stops the turbo from being engaged until the clutch has been fully released. If you by-pass that protective switch, you can snap drive shafts like breadsticks and shatter clutch assemblies as well as you unleash maximum power. Gently as she goes.
BurtSner
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Posted 1501950447
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#19
That's the one Kev. Mine is a Quantum remap. Should have some info pretty soon as we are going away on Thursday for a couple of weeks.
We used to get the bikes remapped to remove the inbuilt midrange lean burn put in at around 5k rpm which is done to reduce decibel output and emission control. Filling in the midrange flatspot didn't improve top speed, but massively helped overtaking as the torque was improved. Potentially I could get the current model remapped from its stock 210 bhp to around 235 with a less restrictive exhaust, decatted (legal for us as there is no MOT requirement) and raise the rev limiter and remove the top speed limiter. It's electronically limited to 186mph as standard, it could then achieve 215, but I've retired from top speed racing and gone faster so nothing to prove.
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
Admin Simon
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Posted 1501960151
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#20
Very interesting post
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BurtSner
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Posted 1516463292
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#21
Well since i created this topic after I'd had the remap done early in August 2017 I've only been away the once.
We headed up north and mooched around Islay and Jura for a total of around 1400 miles, and then until I last filled her up 2nd November the overall mileage was 2270 miles. Not as many as I'd hoped, and I could have left it longer but I'm at a loose end right now and a tad bored.
As stated previously I've been averaging just short of 28 mpg over 22000 miles or so. I tend to drive with a soft foot, easy on the brakes, and don't tend to accelerate like a loon.
My driving technique has not changed a jot since the remap, my impressions remain as initially reported on....
It has a great willingness to make progress, the need to change down on hills has all but disappeared. There is torque aplenty when I need to pull away up hills and I can ease off the throttle far sooner when I've achieved a touring speed I want to maintain. Using the cruise control like I had previously also shows it less wanting to drop out on a hill, in fact I can't remember it happening and there is a hill close by I regularly use that would not be achieved in 6t gear previously. I'd had to change down to 5th and sometimes 4th to keep going
The fuel consumption has not changed one little bit, it's still going strong at 27.85 mpg as before
So, conclusions. No fuel saving per se, maybe I drove it sufficiently economically previously. Drivability is far superior. Worth doing? Yes I'm very positive about it.
__________________ miss Molly - Chocolate Labrador Hymer BMC-T 680. “Der Hummer”. I’m now a berk in a Merc. 1974 Norton Commando 850 1960 Triton 650 2024 25th Anniversary Hayabusa 2021 Z900RS Kawasaki Exeter, East Devon Simon
marli+2
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Posted 1516541124
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#22
Great timing with your post Whilst January has been struggling by my thoughts had turned to remapping and was it worth it and how much would it cost etc etc and then "Lo behold" a stream of posts to enlighten me appears. All I have to do now is justify the £400 quid expense which may not be so easy!
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Pudsey Bear
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Posted 1516542489
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#23
My two penn'orth on this subject. My thoughts are quite basic as I am not an engineer, but surely these engines getting smaller in capacity, and more and more power being squeezed out of them, must surely be stressing the moving engine parts to breaking point, then to increase the pressure further so to speak, is the path to destruction and shorter longevity. You can't put a quart into a pint pot is a very old saying. Then, there is the drive train and transmission, should we be confident in Fiats generosity in building it that they made it beefy enough to take all this extra not envisioned extra power long term, bearing in mind their history on Ducato gearboxes is far from good, then there is the driving technique, Only ever had one X250 so not much to go on there, but mine had the Ford 2.2 120bhp engine with 120k miles on it, and I was running at around 3250kilos all the time, but had more than enough power except on the steeper hills, so I employed the use of that stick poking out of the dash, and changed down, the gearbox isn't there simply to get into top gear, it is there to prevent the engine labouring and being stressed, & to keep it in the power band where it is more efficient, never designed to live in top gear up hill and down dale. Where's that Eurajohn, he'd put it a lot better than me.
__________________Kev Warning, might contain an opinion If you're not the lead dog, your view never changes. Don't force it, use a bigger hammer. Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi. Link to self build pictures Link to sort of blog on facts